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Old 18-07-16, 07:37 AM   #21
Scott
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Hello all
I remembered to go and have gander at the flywheels in the garden and they have the weight each side of a spoke (not between two spokes) and they're 21380 which is way outside the scope in this thread. Our other L is much later.
There's a couple of early flywheel sets for the J with the weights at the junction of two spokes and the hub laying about here somewhere.

Cheers Scott
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Old 18-07-16, 11:26 AM   #22
stevecraig
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Hello
Had a look at the magneto bracket has no cast number but a stamped number : J63 on the machined surface under the magneto. Also looked at the hand pump prime leaver, it has the cast in number of : 2189B and the bolt that holds the leaver has the number: 2198B
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Old 18-07-16, 05:26 PM   #23
Numpty
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J63 is the standard mag bracket for a flick mag J or L engine. Later brackets have the part number cast in. Adds more evidence to the returned and rebuilt argument with a part number added by hand to an earlier bracket.

Mark
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Old 20-07-16, 06:06 AM   #24
mervyn cloake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numpty View Post
Mervyn, I was replying to you post above re base and chain guard, sorry I'd not made that clear.
Regarding the parts,
Cylinder. 2101b is listed in the book as the original type, however the first spec201 engines used a different cylinder with a lifting eye. This may or may not have had a part number cast in. It would make sense that this was part 2101 and the revised cylinder 2101b. The book states the next cylinder as part J9 used from engine number 2875-5357. Taking Steve's engine number as 3501 then this should have a J9 cylinder as per Scotts post above.

Mark
Mark.
I am have difficulty reconciling with what I have been observing with what you and Scott are saying about the early engines.

I do not have David Edgington's latest book but I do have the first one on H to R.
I have taken photos of my engine to post here but before I do I have some questions that may make it easier for me to get some things sorted out.

In the above quote you say that the G9 head started at 2875 so when did the the 21010B start and do you know the timeline for the various flywheel counter weights?

Another question, why don't the early 2 1/2 hp engine name plates have the spec or the "J" designation? Some thing I have always wondered about.

The comments I made in my first post as I said was based on my observations of early engines, some of which don't agree with my copy of the first H to R book.

One thing I have learnt over the years there is often variation to the known Facts.

So if you can answer the above questions I will follow up with the photos and more discussion.
Merv.
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Old 20-07-16, 07:42 AM   #25
listerdiesel
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This is the earliest book I have on file, picture of the blocks and flywheels.



Peter
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Old 05-08-16, 11:02 AM   #26
mervyn cloake
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Since this thread has started I have looked into see what I can find out about my early Lister 2881 As I have said I have made assumptions about what I have seen.
My engine was sent to NZ on the 23/01/2011 which would give it a possible build date of Dec 2010 This is not consistent with David Edgington's research but could be consistent if it was a rebuild. Engine no 3006 is exactly the same as mine and was sent here on the 13/03/2011 along with engine 2982 8hp.

In Davids first booklet it is not clear when the governing system changed. I have always been under the impression it was the first engines that gave trouble and would have been changed BEFORE 2881 and 3006 were built.

If 2881 and 3006 are rebuilds I would wonder why they weren't sent back to the original owners? as they would be if failed under warranty. I think it is likely they were unsold engines in stock. Also I think that when they were given their serial numbers could be significant.

There is no doubt that these two engines have features of earlier engines as the G9 heads were fitted before these were made.

Mark and Scott, you can see where I come from in raising the issues. Unfortunately with David Edgingtons passing it won't be easy to any get more info on this.

In my research into Levin And Co and Listers in NZ I was hoping to find pictures or drawings of Listers, but no luck But I did find that they imported
102 engines in 1911
213 in 1912
301 in 1913
This would make my engine one of the first to come into the country. probably in the first shipment.

Although Lister separators and shearing equipment were imported earlier there are no references to engines prior to 1911 and most early references are 2 1/2 hp engines

Here are the photos.

Merv.

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Old 06-08-16, 10:48 AM   #27
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Mervyn,

Firstly David, I have discussed this matter with other enthusiasts who knew David in person far better than I did. We have all agreed that it is very unlikely David would have published serial numbers relating to changes without cast iron proof, having had his fingers burnt in the past. However re reading the first part of the book relating to early engines, I would say that the numbers quoted are first ones built to new specification but not necessarily a clear cut off point.
Secondly your engine, In looking through the book I have found an image showing an engine 2854 built at the end of 1910. This engine looks exactly like yours. I know the owner so will ask him kindly to check and look for any signs of a deleted serial number. I note that the flywheel faces of your engine are painted thus hiding any possible evidence of a deleted number, although it is entirely feasible that the flywheels could have had a light skim during rebuild.
Thirdly warranty, This was the first design introduced by Listers and reading through, was planned for a 30 year production lifespan. Therefore it was essential for Listers to gain a good reputation. The original design was clearly not fit for purpose, so would you give the farmer hassle asking him to wait for his 'new' engine to be rebuilt or offer him a replacement one? After all if you buy white goods these days that fail, you get a replacement.

So in conclusion, I would say your engine is one of the last of the old style engines built with revised governor. Possibly old stock but more likely using up old parts.

If I find out anything further I will pass this on.

Reading through the H to R book again carefully has indeed suggested there are a few anomalies, so the research into old engines is clearly not an exact science! I would however thoroughly recommend that you get a copy. As far as I know they are available from Internal Fire Museums shop. You could PM 'Headless' (Andy) and I would think he could sort you out a copy and send it.

Mark
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Old 07-08-16, 10:21 AM   #28
mervyn cloake
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Mark, Firstly thank you for the Information about the early Listers, it has made me see things in a different light.
I have been around stationary engines for nearly forty years and one thing I learnt a long time ago is that it pays to keep an open mind on what you think you know and even what you read. I have always had the greatest respect for David Edgington and his research, I do not question this as he has had "cast iron" material to work from.

Now to my engine, I have checked the flywheels and there is no evidence of older numbers, 2881 is stamped on the flywheels and the end of the crankshaft. As I don't know the current whereabouts of 3006 I can't check on that one.

As there is no evidence to suggest the two engines were recalled and they don't fit with the production time line, Is it possible that these engines were put aside after manufacture to have their governors modified as time permitted, then given their serial numbers and sent out? If this was the case there may not have been a record of it and consequently not shown up in David's research. That could account for the serial number anomaly. what do you think?

I would certainly like to know more and a comparison with 2854 would be welcome.

However for what ever the reason, the engine is what it is and is somewhat unique. The fact that it is one of the first Listers imported into New Zealand gives it historical significance.

I have in total nine Listers all restored except for a very early Lister A that I haven't found out anything about yet.

I have intended to get the latest H to R book so I will contact Andy.

Merv.
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Old 07-08-16, 10:41 PM   #29
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Hi Mervyn,

Sorry I did not wish to sound disingenuous only to clarify that the numbers quoted are likely to have come from the original day books. There is a lot to digest in the book and I think you will come up with your own conclusion based on it. It is definitely worth getting.

Your engine was built post change over from sliding cam which occurred around 2500. 2854 is of course pre the change to J9 cylinder and as we dont know when the flywheels changed, could be completely correct. Davids comments from the book read 'it must be one of the last to retain the inter-spoke balance weight'. Your 2881 is just post the J9 change by a handful of numbers, so again given the supporting evidence of 2854, I'd still say it is a completely genuine engine built and alloted the number at the time. 3006 is likely to be a rebuild and would probably have been part of a batch of rebuilds spanning numbers 3000-? Its possible these were sold out of sequence as maybe Listers alloted the next available 1000 issue numbers to differentiate rebuilds from new stock even though they were sold as new!

One thing that beguiles the modern historian is just when you think you have nailed something, someone pops up with evidence that completely baffles you!

Enjoy your engines and if you turn up anything else interesting, please share it. I'd be especially interested to see the early A type. Our club owns the third oldest in preservation and comparing it to later spec 10's it is different.

Mark
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Old 08-08-16, 09:16 PM   #30
single flywheel
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Smile early lister j

Hello I have been most interested I you lister j thread.my youngest son has A 1923 Lister J type featured in stationary engine recently I am most interested in your early lister A as I have a number of these engines also.
Mike Watt.
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