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Old 14-10-18, 10:28 AM   #21
nickh
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Originally Posted by Coal Miner View Post
A little while ago I attended a lecture by the advisor to the government on transport……...
……… I should be changing my car every three years!
Probably paid for by the SMMT.


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Old 15-10-18, 11:56 AM   #22
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Ah, that's what it says...

I find it hard to believe that there is anybody stupid enough to believe electric cars are the way forward...

The governments like the idea of moving the pollution out of their city centres, into somebody else's back yard, which is all that electric vehicles do.

When an electric car can make 220bhp and 450 ftlbs for 400 miles, then take 5 minutes to recharge I might change my mind...

MP
Martin,

Though I find referring to people who support electric vehicles being the way forward as "Stupid" is incredibly narrow minded, here is some food for thought.

400 Mile range you say?

So, suppose your average speed is 50 mph, you drive for 8 hours constantly?

Sadly, no one is going to comply with your request for that level of endurance and a 5 min charge cycle.

What will most likely happen is, vehicles will have either a huge durability (and hence a ma-hoosive battery) and slow charging, or will have a 100-150 mile range, and charge up in the time it takes you to have a tinkle or get a Costa. You don't need both. If you've done 400 miles, I seriously doubt you'll want to be back on the road to do another 400 in 5 minutes......

The biggest challenge to a cell, and its life-cycle is heat during rapid charge, it generates more heat at that point than at any other point (including rapid discharge), big cells will demand very sophisticated cooling circuits to protect the cell from rapid degradation, so I seriously doubt the big durability cells will end up on rapid charge sequences.

There are a number of hills to overcome though, battery life-cycle being one of them, it will need to extend to the whole life of the vehicle to be fully taken seriously, and the power unit needs to drop to the same percentage cost of the vehicle as the I-C engine currently is.

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Originally Posted by Coal Miner View Post
A little while ago I attended a lecture by the advisor to the government on transport. I suggested that I was helping the planet by keeping a 40 year old car on the road. I was put firmly in my place; new internal combustion cars are so clean, and are becoming cleaner all the time, that I should be changing my car every three years! As to the pollution caused by making batteries; the answer was simply that technology will come to the rescue!
Barry.
Hi Barry,

The government drives this point home with the use of the taxable allowance on company cars, your tax on the vehicle increases over time to encourage the purchase of a newer and cleaner vehicle. I don't agree with it, but it is they way they push.

The process of making battery cells is evolving all the time, but the development time is still currently longer than it takes to design a new I-C engine platform from scratch (around 5 years)

Paul.
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Old 15-10-18, 12:20 PM   #23
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Martin,

Though I find referring to people who support electric vehicles being the way forward as "Stupid" is incredibly narrow minded, here is some food for thought.

400 Mile range you say?

So, suppose your average speed is 50 mph, you drive for 8 hours constantly?

Sadly, no one is going to comply with your request for that level of endurance and a 5 min charge cycle.

What will most likely happen is, vehicles will have either a huge durability (and hence a ma-hoosive battery) and slow charging, or will have a 100-150 mile range, and charge up in the time it takes you to have a tinkle or get a Costa. You don't need both. If you've done 400 miles, I seriously doubt you'll want to be back on the road to do another 400 in 5 minutes......

The biggest challenge to a cell, and its life-cycle is heat during rapid charge, it generates more heat at that point than at any other point (including rapid discharge), big cells will demand very sophisticated cooling circuits to protect the cell from rapid degradation, so I seriously doubt the big durability cells will end up on rapid charge sequences.

There are a number of hills to overcome though, battery life-cycle being one of them, it will need to extend to the whole life of the vehicle to be fully taken seriously, and the power unit needs to drop to the same percentage cost of the vehicle as the I-C engine currently is.



Hi Barry,

The government drives this point home with the use of the taxable allowance on company cars, your tax on the vehicle increases over time to encourage the purchase of a newer and cleaner vehicle. I don't agree with it, but it is they way they push.

The process of making battery cells is evolving all the time, but the development time is still currently longer than it takes to design a new I-C engine platform from scratch (around 5 years)

Paul.
I would want an electric vehicle that did 400 miles so that I could tow my trailer 250 miles and get most of the way home before stopping for a charge.
I also think electric is impractical for one reason nobody seems to have even mentioned, how many cars stop at motorway service stations on route, several hundred at any one time, there would be civil disruption as people fought for the few charging points because no business is going to fill a car park full of charging points and what of us dinosaurs who took up a charging spot whilst resting. Electric cars in my view are ideal for town work and very short journeys, I've even considered one for my wife and I just to run around town with to leave our other car for journeys and rallying etc.
Regardless of what we are told the hidden costs of making batteries and disposing of them, toxic chemicals etc, will be never be told truthfully because electric cars would stall.

Re government views regardless of who's in, their views and suggestions are there just to pander to the masses to get more votes to keep them or get them into power, the taxes are there just to raise the funds for the coffers to keep the current infrastructure running.
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Old 15-10-18, 12:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lister M View Post
I would want an electric vehicle that did 400 miles so that I could tow my trailer 250 miles and get most of the way home before stopping for a charge.

I also think electric is impractical for one reason nobody seems to have even mentioned, how many cars stop at motorway service stations on route, several hundred at any one time, there would be civil disruption as people fought for the few charging points because no business is going to fill a car park full of charging points and what of us dinosaurs who took up a charging spot whilst resting. Electric cars in my view are ideal for town work and very short journeys, I've even considered one for my wife and I just to run around town with to leave our other car for journeys and rallying etc.
Regardless of what we are told the hidden costs of making batteries and disposing of them, toxic chemicals etc, will be never be told truthfully because electric cars would stall.

Re government views regardless of who's in, their views and suggestions are there just to pander to the masses to get more votes to keep them or get them into power, the taxes are there just to raise the funds for the coffers to keep the current infrastructure running.
Martin P
Thanks Martin,

But would you really do 250 miles in one stint? Keep in mind here the recommended maximum drive stint is 2 hours. You could argue that 125 miles to a rally, where you may not be able to charge, and then 125 back is justifiable in 2 x 2 hour stints of course.

Taking that basis in mind, at any one point in time there are hundreds if not thousands of cars parked up across the country in service stations taking a break (and in some cases, charging up). The real challenge there is not gridlock, but in fact as you pointed out, the logistics of having almost every space incorporating a charge point. Induction charging may well make some advances, but I can't imagine highways being ripped up to incorporate it.

Range extender will no doubt be a prominent technology focus for years to come until full electric is mature enough to do as I mentioned above.

Where comes the real difficulty, is HGV's, and those will probably be hybrid at best for many years to come. There wasn't much in the way of Hybridisation of trucks during my time at Cummins, stop-start was about as far as it got, but busses on the other hand, were (and are) to a degree, even more advanced on hybridisation than cars are.

Sadly, on a more controversial note, Electric Vehicles is one of those things where, if we continue to argue about it, and deny its future, we are almost certainly going to be left behind. The UK, right now, is one of the leaders for EV technology, if we keep doubting it, we'll get left behind, and have invested too little in the alternatives to catch up. The best technology doesn't always win the race, think Standard vs Broad gauge (Brunel), Cassette vs Betamax etc. whoever gets the most sales in, almost invariably wins out.

Paul.
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Old 15-10-18, 01:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Paul_Sterling View Post
(snip) What will most likely happen is, vehicles will have either a huge durability (and hence a ma-hoosive battery) and slow charging, or will have a 100-150 mile range, and charge up in the time it takes you to have a tinkle or get a Costa. You don't need both.
But unless you have the money and space to keep several cars, or perhaps the foresight to hire and an appropriate vehicle for each occasion (think we may run out of milk middle of next week and nearest shop is 4 miles away - better hire a little runabout), then you do need a single vehicle which can do both and everything in-between.


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Old 15-10-18, 02:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Paul_Sterling View Post

Where comes the real difficulty, is HGV's, and those will probably be hybrid at best for many years to come. There wasn't much in the way of Hybridisation of trucks during my time at Cummins, stop-start was about as far as it got, but busses on the other hand, were (and are) to a degree, even more advanced on hybridisation than cars are.
You would be surprised by the range of full electric HGV's already available. There are several Artic tractor units available or undergoing field testing at the moment. There are also a lot of companies working on the smaller end of HGV's. We currently offer a fully electric 7.5t vehicle, based on the Isuzu N75.

Iveco are also big into the EV market and are offering several options. We are about to start work on one of their 18t rigids.

The problem with EV's in the commercial sector usually comes down to payload and range. The vehicles we build are more suited for urban environments. They would be no good tramping up and down the motorways.

We see far more electric HGV's than hybrid in our industry. We are also starting to see a lot of CNG vehicles coming into us as well over the last 12 months.
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Old 15-10-18, 02:56 PM   #27
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Tesla electric cars have a range of 500 miles, charge in less than 30 minutes plus they can do 0-60 faster than most petrol engined vehicles. My cousin in the USA is on his third one, my brother and his wife visited him this year and were amazed that it perfomed far better than either of my brothers BMW's. I think he also wants one now!

Pete.
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Old 15-10-18, 03:10 PM   #28
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Tesla electric cars have a range of 500 miles, charge in less than 30 minutes plus they can do 0-60 faster than most petrol engined vehicles. My cousin in the USA is on his third one, my brother and his wife visited him this year and were amazed that it perfomed far better than either of my brothers BMW's. I think he also wants one now!

Pete.
Tesla also cannot build cars very quickly as there are always reports of production been behind schedule. From reports the company seem to be run on a wing & a prayer.
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Old 15-10-18, 03:39 PM   #29
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I think there is a huge problem with the infrastructure to allow the charging of multiple vehicles at the same time.

Let's look at some figures :
UK Grid Demand in 2014 was 2.249TWh.
Total no of cars in the UK 37.9 million in March 2018.

If 5% of UK cars were electric & were charged at 50kW fast charging stations for 30mins (normal time to charge to 80%) then that equates to 47.3 GWh.
That is 2.1% of the entire grid demand.

Ok, a rather simplistic calculation, but is the grid going to cope ?
I just don't think so.

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Old 15-10-18, 04:03 PM   #30
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Thanks Martin, Keep in mind here the recommended max
But would you really do 250 miles in one stint? reccomended maximum drive stint is 2 hours. You could argue that 125 miles to a rally, where you may not be able to charge, and then 125 back is justifiable in 2 x 2 hour stints of course.
Paul.
Thursday I did 255 miles in one stint with two legally required five minutes stops to check my sugar levels every two hours, Diabetic, and yesterday I did the same return journey with with the same required stops and yes it was a Engine event I attended.
Why should I need to charge up my car, my current car gives me a range of nearly 700 miles when driven properly, 600 miles normal abuse, I would expect that from anything else I bought.

Martin P
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