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Old 04-07-16, 09:42 PM   #1
The Guvnah
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Default Old trailer vs new hubs, incompatible?

Single Dad to two young lads who are hopping up and down to go sailing this Summer, to that end I've just bought us this bad lad...



...150 including the road trailer & the piggy-backed launching trolley. The eagle eyed will have spotted the 3 stud wheel/hub combination (I didn't) and sourcing replacements for the collapsing paper thin wheel rims is proving harder than I thought. Since learned that 3 stud hubs/wheels are pretty much obsolete and not particularly keen to keep the 3 stud format anyway. I'm guessing that losing 1 stud out of 4 doesn't hold the same potential for catastrophe as losing 1 of only 3! Time to upgrade then particularly because as dinghies go it's quite a biggy and the trailer is a hefty A frame construction built from 2" x 1" box section. A lot easier to source the spare wheel too if it's the ubiquitous 4 stud 4 inch x 8" rim.

The wheels sit on independent bonded rubber torsion type drop arms/trailing links with 1" diameter axle stubs. Seemed a straightforward swap out so I ordered up a pair of Ebay hubs which duly arrived with taper roller bearings as opposed to the ball race bearings in the existing 3 stud hubs.



...dropped the bearing into the inner race and inserted the seal for a trial fit...



...but an immediate problem presented itself in that on visual examination alone it was obvious that the grease seal would have no choice but to ride directly on the shoulder where the machined axle meets the cast portion of the axle stub??? Can't be right thinks the Guv...



With the hub and bearings in place and run onto the axle sure enough it's butting up against that shoulder with no thrust bearing face, and this is going to be rotating at A road speeds?? not for long it ain't...



...plus as a final hoof in the plums; with the washer and castellated nut bottomed on its thread there's about 8mm of end float.



Don't seem to be able to find any definitive dimensioned drawings for what I'd call 'standard' stub axles and have heard references to "extended axles" but again with no measurements given to define what constitutes an 'extended' axle.

Turning up spacers on the lathe would/could eradicate the end float but doesn't solve the issue of the grease seal being destroyed within half a mile. Scratching my melon for solutions now, knock out the taper bearing races and replace with ball bearings maybe...?

Any and all suggestions welcome.

Guv

Last edited by The Guvnah; 07-07-16 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 04-07-16, 10:07 PM   #2
Hornet 6
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At a round 40 a pair I'd be looking at new suspension units.
Better safe than sorry with trailers.

Neil.
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Old 04-07-16, 11:57 PM   #3
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At a round 40 a pair I'd be looking at new suspension units.
Evenin' Neil; Yep that was my first thought, but in searching for replacements the bolt pattern 8 x 8mm bolts and the solid cast trailing links instead of less preferable box section jobbies suggested that the existing units are rated at 350kg possibly 500kg and a typical price for those is neariing a hundred quid the pair which is a bit rich for me. The only ones I've found with the requisite bolt layout were 150. For forty quid I'd be on 'em like a terrier.
The taper bearings would work if that grease seal had a larger inner diameter. My thinking is to turn up a 10mm(ish) long spacer (1" internal and 1 1/2" outer diameter) to interpose between the shoulder of the axle and the inner bearing's roller part (they're L44643 bearings) This puts the hub where it was with regard to the trailer's track width and allows the castle nut to contact the outer bearing for nipping up. All I then need to do is find a swap out seal that will fit the hub's outer diam which I'm guessing will be a pretty common size but with an 1 1/2" inner diameter to fit over the spacer instead of the current one's 1" bore. Think I need to have a chat with a bearing supplier tomorrow ref the seal, how hard can it be?

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Better safe than sorry with trailers.

Neil.
Fair comment as ever, not just my own gormless neck at risk if one of 'em goes bang on a crowded Bank Holiday motorway.

Last edited by The Guvnah; 05-07-16 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 05-07-16, 12:54 AM   #4
Scott
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Hello all
That's a weird seal setup. Over here the seal has a larger inside diameter then the bearing and sits on another shoulder.
If it was my trailer I'd throw the torsion bar setup away and put some springs and a solid axle under it. From my experience with torsion bars and boat trailers, is they always seize up. it's just a matter of when, not if.

Cheers Scott
PS: I love the little boat.
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Old 05-07-16, 03:57 AM   #5
listerdiesel
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What facilities have you got?

I have a 500kg suspension beam here that could be widened, it takes 4stud wheels but has all the parts new so gets you around present and future spares problems.

Peter
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Old 05-07-16, 06:09 AM   #6
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I've had a few dinghys myself - I'm surprised to see 8 bolt mount and cast trailing arms on the suspension. The trick with a dinghy is to not use excessively large units. The boat weighs very little and you will shake it to bits if the undercarriage is too hard.

I would go with your plan A; turn up some sleeves to tightly fit the axles, with an outside diameter to fit a standard oil seal, and an appropriate length to bring the castle nut into play. Have a look at "Bearing Boys" for seals - you'll be able to see what's available.

Consider improving what the boat is sitting on - you don't want direct contact between hull and any part of the chassis. At the very least you could do with a bow snubber.

Martin.
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Old 05-07-16, 11:55 PM   #7
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What facilities have you got?

I have a 500kg suspension beam here that could be widened, it takes 4stud wheels but has all the parts new so gets you around present and future spares problems.

Peter
Cheers for the offer Pete but can I rain-check that for the moment at least?

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I would go with your plan A; turn up some sleeves to tightly fit the axles, with an outside diameter to fit a standard oil seal, and an appropriate length to bring the castle nut into play.
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Hello all
That's a weird seal setup. Over here the seal has a larger inside diameter then the bearing and sits on another shoulder.
Well exactly, just couldn't see how that bearing/seal/axle combination would ever work. I thought I was losing it so thanks for the confirmation that my cognitive bits are still firing.

And so I took a trot up to the local stock holders and had them crop off two 12mm slugs from a bar of 1 1/2" phos-bronze billet. 3:60 for the two, I'll have some of that... Then round the corner to Longford Bearings and 2mins rummaging round his mezzanine produced the required items for a fiver a pop. At this point I was in no mood to haggle over the marginal surface rust. :-)



A pretty simple operation I'm thinking, mostly an exercise in how to creep up on a dimension using a 50yr old lathe and not overshoot by any more than 1/2 thou.

Faced up and centre drilling...



Roughing out...



Then in with the boring bar to finish...



Blimey getting good at this creeping up mullarkey, and here was me thinking "...hmmm perhaps I should have got him to crop a few more off in expectation of cocking at least one of 'em up." Pah! nailed it... with a beautiful sliding fit and another well deserved pat on its pert little chuck for this cracking and eternally useful little lathe.



Just need to shave 15thou off the external diameter and trial fit a seal over it, adjust accordingly. the new seals incorporate a spring around the sealing lips so that should allow for a bit of leeway in the finished diameter tolerance wise. The boys' dinner brought proceedings to a halt but I'm happy with progress, not exactly the most complex engineering task but still nice to do it yerself and what's the chances of an Ebay search turning up off-the-shelf bronze spacers of the required dimensions on demand? Months? Never?

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Originally Posted by martinpaff View Post
I've had a few dinghys myself - I'm surprised to see 8 bolt mount and cast trailing arms on the suspension. The trick with a dinghy is to not use excessively large units. The boat weighs very little and you will shake it to bits if the undercarriage is too hard.
Hadn't considered that aspect if I'm honest but yep I see exactly where you're coming from. Its little British Seagull outboard stashed in the hull doesn't really contribute much to any pre-loading either. Wouldn't surprise me if they turned out to be 750kg units given the build and general heft.


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Cheers Scott
PS: I love the little boat.
It's an early Osprey class, built in timber in 1969 by Cyril Lang, sail/hull number 864. Frankly I think I've got a tiger by the tail here because they were designed as big out and out 2/3 man race boats for the Olympic selection trails not one bloke and two young lads 8 and 11. Previous owner stored her stern up and the crappy cover allowed water to pool around the mast step which made a mess of the bottom forward bulkhead and its frame. It's now in covered storage and I chiselled out the sodden timber pronto so she/he's drying out nicely.

None of which gets me and the boys on the water so with the Osprey months away from repair and summer already here the trailer is required ASAP to bring this little gem back from Somerset...



Enterprise No.878 (a really early one) ordered by, professionally built by and maintained by a master carpenter; owned by the one family from its delivery date...



Zooming up the photos confirms that it's 30 years under dry storage and rigorous prior maintenance regime has left her in excellent condition. The owner assures that the schmutz and grot in the bottom is just accumulated leaves and the odd spider web and the planking is perfect.





So the plan is: get her back, muck her out, rig her and tighten up the stays give her the twice over to see if the act of rigging up opens up any seams. If all seems good we trail her up to Draycote and put her in the shallows to see if visual inspection holds up in practice. Easy when you say it fast.

Last edited by The Guvnah; 06-07-16 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 06-07-16, 12:07 AM   #8
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Consider improving what the boat is sitting on - you don't want direct contact between hull and any part of the chassis. At the very least you could do with a bow snubber.

Martin.
Agreed; when I picked her up the forward part of the hull was resting on an ad hoc sling of about 10 turns of 10mm rope woven between the two main rails. For picking up the Enterprise I've bought a pukka launch dolly which will piggy back on this road trailer.
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Old 06-07-16, 02:03 PM   #9
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Glad to see an Enterprise again. I used to crew with a friend that had one and we used to race off of Southend sea front often. It's a great little boat and if you can get it "up on the plane" with a good following wind they are magic !
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Old 06-07-16, 05:40 PM   #10
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Cheers Minorman, seems a lot of people have had (positive) experience of the Enterprise.

Well the first one's finished...



...but assembly has sent down another googley...

Diameter of standard L44643 taper roller bearing outer race = 1.980" according to Timken,
Outer diameter of oil/grease seal 2.004", so that's a 24thou difference, hmmmm... that's a bit more than a 'friction fit' but I'll give it a go,

Tried some gentle tappage around the perimeter but the darn thing just keeps springing out as expected. Next option is to use a long bolt or length of threaded rod through the hub and plates/washers to make up a simple drawbar puller to press the seal in but with that difference in diameters am I going to cripple the metal outer ring and lunch the seal? It seems likely.

Are they meant to deform during installation? not that I recall. If they're anything like the crankcase oil seals on my bikes they just popped out with a driver and then you'd simply tap in new ones.
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