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Old 20-11-16, 06:49 PM   #1
slb10420seac
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Default Petter S type 5hp - red?

I've recently bought this 5hp Petter S type number 34554 which I guess is from 1924/5. It seems to be in decent original condition apart from the Madison-Kipp oiler which has a disintegrated "wobbler". I've sent an email to a guy in the USA who may have spares but haven't had a reply yet. I've cleaned out the oiler and tried pumping oil but it wouldn't come out of the non re-return valve so I'm wondering if there is something else wrong which caused the wobbler to brake. That looks as if it's made of mazak so I've glued it together just to see what it was like but it's full of cracks.

Bore is ok, main bearings ok but it will need a thorough strip down and clean. It appears to have been painted red originally, apart from the oiler which is green, does this sound right? I believe it was from an engine house near Kew and have the original starting handle and exhaust pot. The blowlamp stand is missing but doesn't appear to have been fitted for a long time due to the build-up of grease and dirt. Thanks, Steve.
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Old 20-11-16, 07:21 PM   #2
air-cooled
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Why shouldn't the red paint be original? Petters certainly painted some of their Junior (M type) range in quite a bright red paint colour. The S type that I owned many years ago was painted grey originally, so not all were the standard Petter green (although the current owner of my old S type has painted it Petter green).

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Old 20-11-16, 07:54 PM   #3
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The "wobbler" does indeed appear to be Mazak, which means that it didn't need any kind of load to break it; as soon as the alloy starts to break down the internal stresses just split it apart. It is interesting though - it is generally thought that American Mazak is a decent quality material, and that the corrosion problems are with British-made Mazak of poor quality control.

Like Phillip, I think that red could easily be the correct colour for your engine. It will be interesting to see how it looks as it cleans up; any signs of a transfer yet?

MP
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Old 20-11-16, 08:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinpaff View Post
any signs of a transfer yet?

MP
I looked for a transfer but couldn't see one. The little badge under the sump drain tap looks to be over the top of the red paint and appears to riveted as it would have been originally.
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Old 20-11-16, 09:01 PM   #5
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Worth checking it out with the Petter records at internal Fire for an accurate date, there may even be a note about colour in the day book.

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Old 21-11-16, 08:59 AM   #6
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Red may well be the correct colour, I've seen a number of red Petters over the years.
For the UK market the engines were supplied with a big tin of cold start cartridges. If you wanted the blowlamp and stand it was an extra. It sounds as if yours never had it.
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Old 21-11-16, 12:12 PM   #7
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If it came from one of the municipal supply companies, they often had 'house' colours.

I will offer the caveat that this was often over-painted on the standard colour either at point of sale or by the installer/end user and I am basing this on a general rule of thumb, not specific to Petters. As always, it is best to contact the relevant helpline person. In this case Roland Craven.

Last edited by Numpty; 22-11-16 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Added info
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Old 22-11-16, 09:49 PM   #8
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I've been in contact with Roland and now seen his very interesting history of the development of these engines via the IF website. Roland has now loaded the "packing" and "erection" sheets onto the IF website which give a wealth of information. My engine is from October 1924 and originally had the "Petter Patent Lubricator" but had a new o/s piston fitted in 1928 which I think is when the Madison-Kipp replaced the original lubricator. This accounts for the difference in colour so I'm thinking it was originally red. It was also supplied with the Petter starters so as suggested never had a blow lamp and stand.

I really need to get the engine properly cleaned and photographed as it appears to me to be very original other than the changes made in 1928. Then get a 3foot x 18inch cooling tank, make a trolley and get it running! Thanks, Steve.
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Old 30-01-17, 09:04 PM   #9
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Progress so far:

A good clean revealed some of the red coming off the green on the base tank with no transfer underneath. It's looking as though at least the bottom half is red oxide and maybe the top half is too but has been baked with oil for so long it's looking more like old gloss!

Two of the piston rings were pitted where the piston had stopped at the exhaust ports so a I've sourced a new set of +40 thou rings at reasonable cost.

A replacement Lubricator eccentric has been sourced from USA via a contact of Roland and that is now working. Putting it back together made me realise how difficult a job it would have been to make one.

Big and main bearings all good, little end and gudgeon pin have wear so if anyone knows how I could source a 1" x5" gudgeon pin I would be grateful.

I've had to remove the flywheel, eccentric and bearing housing to get to the brass oiling ring screwed to the crank. It was loose and spinning on the crank because the screws had fallen out and jammed inside the brass housing. The tiny pipe going from it into the crank had been ripped off and the end of the pipe from the lubricator damaged. Not sure what caused it all but has to be fixed.

I'm thinking because this is an early engine, the addition of the the later lubricator eccentric has meant the flywheel is hanging off the end of the crank by an inch. I'm not sure how best to ensure it's safety even if has been like this since 1928!
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Old 30-01-17, 09:37 PM   #10
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i guess the gudgeon pin looks similar to the one in my petter s .I had this one made plus they reamed the piston bosses round again ground the pin to suit .and made a new little end bush . plus analysis of the old pin to find the grade of steel plus heat treatment .


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