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Old 07-08-17, 04:48 PM   #31
nickh
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I agree that the engine will likely need to be upgraded. But that doesn't make the project a non starter does it?
The original question related to using a Lister D and TBH I think that is a non-starter.

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Old 07-08-17, 04:58 PM   #32
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On the other hand I could have a beautiful stationary engine in the front that makes a wonderful noise that at weekends I can strip down, service, oil and paint etc. Then at the back of the boat the electric outboard will be silent.

If I am going to play with stationary engines I want it to do something useful! It justifies spending money on it!

Purely subjective, however even its Mother would describe a Lister D as beautiful, and at full chat trying to churn out 30amps from an alternator the noise certainly won't be wonderful! There are many more far more elegant engines out there. A Petter S or Crossley VOE running on waste oil for instance?

I occasionally run 800 watts of lights from a 240v alternator driven by my 2.5hp single flywheel Lister Junior and it's about at its limit, rolling boil in the hopper and a gallon of fuel an hour. Admitted the engine had a hard life originally and is 90yrs old, but if you want to extract a full 1.5hp out of a Lister D it would probably need a rebore to start with.

Good luck! Please keep us posted on how you achieve your propulsion.

Dan
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Old 07-08-17, 05:09 PM   #33
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It will work with a D-type, but probably not to the level that would make for satisfactory and enjoyable navigation. OK, you have electric outboards, that is a good start efficiency-wise. You had not mentioned the battery specifically, I was envisaging an electric transmission only, not a cyclic hybrid, nor a target 50% duty cycle. That all helps too, but there will be a narrow range of charge states and rates that will give best efficiency from the battery. The battery size you have sounds suitable for lead acids, as these cannot be charged fast especially abouve 70% SOC.

Outboard total consumption is 24x60=1440W i.e. almost 2hp(elec) input equalling your 2hp(mech) engine output. Therefore if you want 50% propulsion duty cycle your transmission efficiency from crankshaft to input terminals needs to be 50% also. Out of this you have to account for your alternator and its drive losses for the full power, and charge/discharge efficiency of the battery and charger losses for half the power. Might just squeak through, although not with an automotive alt.

But please bear in mind what it is like to get a continuous 2hp from a D-type. If you've mainly run them at rallies circulating water through a tap into a bucket, or lit a dozen 40W lamps, it's not like that. It has to hammer away noisily as fast as you dare run it, faster is better. If there is any shortage of compression you'll probably have to go even faster. My old 11D genset is not perfect but the engine internals are not in bad shape and it does give the full 1kW output at 1000RPM. But it feels like hard work, and in my case the unmodified floatless carb has to be frequently adjusted to keep the mixture right as the tank runs down.

A 5/1 would be so much nicer, it would chug along instead of hammering. Or, bite the bullet and go for a marine engine...
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Old 07-08-17, 05:52 PM   #34
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The idea in principle I like, but I think you should be looking for more hp from an engine than a D can provide.

I'd also want to find out if a 12 or 24 volt alternator is more or less efficient than a 240 volt one, and which makes best sense as a power source for charging batteries, something I know nothing about, electrickery is a black art as far as I'm concerned.

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Old 07-08-17, 06:38 PM   #35
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Doodlebug,

We all applaud your idea's and goal's but among'st those of us that have added our views you have two gentlemen, one lives and breaths engines in design and testing, diesels for work and stationary's for a hobby, and the other gentleman knows more about electricals and electronics than the rest of us put together and they wouldnt waste your time with their thoughts if they thought it would work without issues, we are not trying to knock you down just trying to save you hours of work.

Martin P
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Old 07-08-17, 09:36 PM   #36
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The vintage canal boat fraternity use 2 cylinder diesel Ruston 2VTH's and the like, lovely looking engines with a nice sound. By all means go vintage, but choose the right tool for the job.
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Old 07-08-17, 09:49 PM   #37
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A Stuart P5M or similar might be more suitable than a D? 4hp and has a cooling pump so no hooper to keep a check on.
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Old 07-08-17, 09:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
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A Stuart P5M or similar might be more suitable than a D? 4hp and has a cooling pump so no hooper to keep a check on.
Or a P5 powering your alternator, I know of a really nice fully rebuilt one

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Old 13-08-17, 09:43 AM   #39
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Hi,

I like the concept and applaud innovative thinking but there are a couple of thoughts that come to mind.

First, 1kw is 1.3hp so as the engine is running at 1000 rpm and in the real world cannot achieve 100% efficiency, then 1kw would seem to be the yield.

This would give 41amps @ 24V, but how long is your narrowboat? For example if it was 20M long and you used 2.5mm copper cable you would only get 700W at the motor due to the cable resistance.

This can be mitigated by increasing the size of cable, with associated cost.

I don't want to dampen the enthusiasm,but a thought to be aware of.

Nick
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Old 14-08-17, 09:17 AM   #40
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Quote:
if it was 20M long and you used 2.5mm copper cable
If the batteries and generator are at opposite ends, for satisfactory operation of a charging circuit carrying 42A with 1V drop you would want a cable CSA in mm˛ of Length*2*42*0.0188/1 or 1.6mm˛ for every metre of length, or 35mm˛ for your example 20m. This would still waste 4% of the generated power.
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