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Old 22-01-13, 10:16 PM   #61
martinpaff
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Gents - thank you keeping this disagreement polite, but frankly, I don't think it is moving forward any longer. It's clear to an outsider (I have no knowledge of the subject, and no axe to grind) that the discussion is going round in circles.

I think this is a good time to accept that each other's opinion is not going to be swayed. I do not wish to close the thread, because it may yet go off in another, more fruitful direction, but please let this particular subject go...

Martin.
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Old 01-02-13, 07:44 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencer1885 View Post
Ade
Crappy parts or not this damage is accuring in super quick time (less than 2000 hours)
The damage was reported by several people now with different engine manufactures.
In your experience of running WMO in a Lister CS engine, you mentioned the occurance of both excessive ring and ring groove wear (leaving aside bore wear). Did you start with a new piston and rings prior to using WMO, or was there a degree of ring groove wear already present on the piston.

Also was any wear present on the piston skirt after running on WMO.

The reason I ask is, in your opinion would a piston with armoured ring grooves [ steel insert cast into the piston, which the ring grooves are machined into]be more resistant to wear, furthermore would a cylinder liner with surface hardening also reduce wear, see here: http://www.laystall.co.uk/laycarb.php

If these steps were to reduce wear to acceptable levels, that would just leave the piston rings to be replaced more frequently.
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Old 30-07-13, 11:44 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
Mathew , the facts you anounce are no more than subjective findings, the deposits you describe are a layer of combustion by products (AKA Spencers ash ) adhering to the non wiped surfaces of the combustion chamber, the composition of which has yet to be determined. The deposits do nothing, its what does not get deposited that may cause wear.
Holding a theory close to your heart does not make it factual no matter how oft repeated.
There is no doubt in my mind that using WMO causes premature upper cylinder wear but the reasons are far from clear at this time.
A simple cost/benefit analysis should tell whether WMO is worth using in smaller engines, I suspect wrecking a CS in 1500 hours may not be considered worthwhile.
Why do you refer to me as "Bottleveg`s friend" ? Do you have a beef here ? I have conversed with him via this and another forum on 3 or 4 occasions and read many of his threads, this hardly constitutes friendship but he certainly shares his knowledge in a friendly and courteous manner.

Ivan.
This is Ivan or mark wilkinson and the man who sells lister cs engines to the Americans on the lister engine forum.
As I said he knows all about the deposits from burning waste engine oils in a diesel engine but seems to not know anything about it when I brought up the subject some time later on two forums.

Matthew






Once I decreased viscosity enough to allow the WMO to effectively enter
the engine there was no problem. It's entirely possible that the
agents I added gave the mixture extra ignition properties but I cannot
be certain. Reason would dictate that possibility. I may have killed
both birds with the same slingshot.

-----Original Message-----
From: mark_hps@...
To: Lister_CSOG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 2:05 AM
Subject: Re:[Lister_CSOG] Waste Engine Oil as Lister Fuel



Kevin,Jack and list,

This is an¬ interesting topic,¬ is the reason for diluting the WMO with
diesel and gas to correct the viscosity to enable the injectors to
spray ok?¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ Or to lower the ignition temperature of the
WMO?¬ ¬
Or both?¬ ¬ ¬ The additives in engine oils seem to be the problem¬ as far
as wear is concerned as their combustion deposits are abrasive.¬ These
additives by their nature would¬ seem to be impossible to filter or
centrifuge out.¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ Using WMO is my ¬ favorite obsession¬ and I hope to
try it in¬ a Lister¬ CS going down the heated filter and¬ injector
route,¬ also eventually in¬ a¬ 25hp 300 Rpm¬ open crank engine,¬ this
engine is designed to run on residual/bunker oil, so a¬ WMO/kerosene
blend should be like rocket fuel¬ to it.

Mark.
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Old 30-07-13, 02:52 PM   #64
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It's something I would not attempt unless I was certain the oil was very very clean, otherwise any savings would be more than offset by repair bills and shorter component life.
A filtering regime which I would consider adequate would be coarse and fine straining, followed by several passes through a purpose made centrifuge. These are capable of cleaning down to sub micron sizes and with enough passes result in a deep gold / brown oil. The oil has to be heated to 80 degrees however meaning batch processing would be necessary. A 200L drum at a time for example.

Even then I would still advise cutting it with diesel before use to correct the viscosity. Oil burning may still produce ash though.

You probably could toss it into a clapped out hot bulb motor as they will run on any old shŪte.
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Old 30-07-13, 04:44 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listermaniac View Post
It's something I would not attempt unless I was certain the oil was very very clean, otherwise any savings would be more than offset by repair bills and shorter component life.
A filtering regime which I would consider adequate would be coarse and fine straining, followed by several passes through a purpose made centrifuge. These are capable of cleaning down to sub micron sizes and with enough passes result in a deep gold / brown oil. The oil has to be heated to 80 degrees however meaning batch processing would be necessary. A 200L drum at a time for example.

Even then I would still advise cutting it with diesel before use to correct the viscosity. Oil burning may still produce ash though.

You probably could toss it into a clapped out hot bulb motor as they will run on any old shŪte.
Hi,
You have not quite got to the point of the problem with burning waste engine oils and it's been well debated.
I think you might want to start at the beginning to get to the problem.
But to sum up, forget the filtering as that's not the problem, it's what happens to lubricating oils when they are burnt and the deposits that are produced.
It's the additives in sump oil that are the problem and they can not be removed by filtering or centrifuging.

Cheers
Matthew
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Old 30-07-13, 05:21 PM   #66
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OK I see, but as was mentioned above whether or not it is a worthwhile endeavour can only be determined by cost benefit analysis.

So if you have a valuable engine for which parts are either scarce or expensive you'd be quite mad.
On the other hand if you have a few trash picked Chinese Yanmar L70 clones it probably would be a good idea as the engine would probably fail anyway before the wear became excessive.

The facts of the matter are:
1) burning WMO produces ash. FACT. Nothing can avoid that
2)Ash greatly accelerates wear. FACT
3)So is WMO a viable fuel? if you can get it free, process it cheap and are willing to have an engine life of < 2000hrs - yes
. if not, - No.

As Martin hinted at, there is nothing more to be said on the subject. You're just going round the houses.


We can argue about this 'till the cows come home but the only definitive way of deciding this would be to get two engines of the same type and condition, run one on diesel and the other on WMO for say 1000 hrs, then strip and examine both for wear.
The better Yanmar clones might be a good candidate as they are cheap and (some) are reasonably reliable but who realistically has the time or money to blow on such a study.

Last edited by Listermaniac; 30-07-13 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 30-07-13, 05:44 PM   #67
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I absolutely agree.
1500ish hours before the engines scrap are very low hours for a engine to wear out.
That would only be 3 oil changes in hours on my lister fr with a lister recommended 500 hours between oil changes.

So what you are say is if you have a engine of zero value, that may already be worn out( which then means it's not even going to survive any time at all) then using waste motor oil as fuel is worthwhile, seems a bit pointless really.

Cheers
Matthew
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Old 30-07-13, 06:02 PM   #68
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That's it! Nuff said.

Using WMO is for the realm of "tinkerers", not serious engine enthusiasts.
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Old 30-07-13, 09:17 PM   #69
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My lister sl1 does run on engine oil when I don't want it too which was one of the scariest things in my life.
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