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Old 03-07-12, 10:19 AM   #61
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On the subject of qualifications; I worked in industry most of my working life & have come across many people with quaifications coming out of their ears,(so to speak) who cant do the job. We had an electrician in our dep't who had a degree & was to be honest, useless.(good on paper). To mention but one & i've seen many of them at all levels. I sometimes wonder how industry survives at all .When my son was doing his apprenticeship the firm were taking on graduates, they had to run condensed apprenticeships so they could DO something.Qualifications are an"indicator" of someones worth,nothing more.(unless they're faked that is) I'm sure there are many people on here that have seen the same thing!
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Old 03-07-12, 11:45 AM   #62
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On the subject of qualifications; I worked in industry most of my working life & have come across many people with quaifications coming out of their ears,(so to speak) who cant do the job. We had an electrician in our dep't who had a degree & was to be honest, useless.(good on paper). To mention but one & i've seen many of them at all levels. I sometimes wonder how industry survives at all .When my son was doing his apprenticeship the firm were taking on graduates, they had to run condensed apprenticeships so they could DO something.Qualifications are an"indicator" of someones worth,nothing more.(unless they're faked that is) I'm sure there are many people on here that have seen the same thing!
I've seen the same argument a lot of times in industry, and having been on both sides of the fence (apprentice and Academic) I have seen the arguments of both sides.

Graduates without practical experience are of limited benefit to an industry where they are required to fault find and then develop a solution, as they can't find the fault, because they (usually) don't understand hammers, spanners, nuts and bolts. Apprentices are of limited benefit to companies who seek people to design and develop, because they (usually) don't understand design principles, stress analysis, FEA, FMEA, design validation etc etc. so its not about whether the person is an apprentice trained background, or a university background, its what they are put to in their role that matters.

I would have originally done the academic route, as it offers a higher level of entry into industry, however, I did not want the student loan debt, and the pay for the employee level a graduate is expected to work at is rubbish. so I did my apprenticeship, and studied at University at the same time, and it did me no harm at all. I am now, as my signature suggests, a Design Engineer, earning twice what a comparable graduate my age would be, simply because when Cummins employed me, I have proven, by my degree, that I had the ability to take on higher level engineering and develop from it, but also had a good understanding of how things are put together, and how they should be designed for people to work on them.

Paul.
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Old 05-07-12, 01:18 AM   #63
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Too true novo . Take a chap I know works on a farm as a driver/mechanic and he wanted a cultivator to do a job that he had thought through and reckoned would work. His boss went to a local company and asked them if it could be made bearing in mind they make and sell ploughs /cultivators etc and they said it cannot be done .
This chap convinced his boss it could and made one for use on the farm and it worked and worked well .
The company in question sent their engineers to take a look at it and they took a lot of pictures and went away to discuss it . Fortunately the farms owner had hindsight to patent the idea and now this company make it the boss and the mechanic split any royalties between them. Not bad for a chap who left school with no formal qualifications and nothing but a good head on his shoulders .
He proved the men in white coats with all the degree,s and honours wrong and they wanted to use his ideas to make money .
I know this bloke really well as he bounced me off his knee when I was a nipper and taught me to ride motorbikes and drive and weld and do loads of things,my uncle . Not bad for a kid that was deemed to be a thicky when he left school.
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Old 05-07-12, 08:38 AM   #64
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Too true novo . Take a chap I know works on a farm as a driver/mechanic and he wanted a cultivator to do a job that he had thought through and reckoned would work. His boss went to a local company and asked them if it could be made bearing in mind they make and sell ploughs /cultivators etc and they said it cannot be done .
This chap convinced his boss it could and made one for use on the farm and it worked and worked well .
The company in question sent their engineers to take a look at it and they took a lot of pictures and went away to discuss it . Fortunately the farms owner had hindsight to patent the idea and now this company make it the boss and the mechanic split any royalties between them. Not bad for a chap who left school with no formal qualifications and nothing but a good head on his shoulders .
He proved the men in white coats with all the degree,s and honours wrong and they wanted to use his ideas to make money .
I know this bloke really well as he bounced me off his knee when I was a nipper and taught me to ride motorbikes and drive and weld and do loads of things,my uncle . Not bad for a kid that was deemed to be a thicky when he left school.
You know that sometimes companies don't take on ideas not because they are not technically possible, but because it doesn't line up with their business plan. the answer is usally always the same "it cannot be done", but actual the reason is usually completely different to that.

The education system in this country may come in for a lot of (deserved) criticism these days, but there were far more people in my parents and grandparents era that left school with absolutely nothing, and that is surely the fault of the teaching system when clever people like your friend has nothing to show for his skills.

Paul.
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Old 05-07-12, 09:31 AM   #65
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Not everyone wants to go the same way Paul. To say E.J.s uncle has nothing to show for his skills is almost certainly not true. You mean he hasn't got a piece of paper. I left school with no qualifications & yes, i think i was let down by the education system to a certain extent but I am now retired & looking back over my life,I wouldn't change a thing. My son who did an aprenticship (i didn't) is now a design & development engineer in a major motor company and is also very happy. Having said that, i wouldn't change my life for his. Everyone is different, not having letters after your name doesn't make you a lesser person. Look at the great engineers of the past who often had virtually no education. Then look at "some" of the "engineers" that i have met who couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag.All very qualified but not very usefull. I find these are the ones that usually have an attitude problem to "lesser mortals". Having said that i've also worked with some brilliant ones.
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Old 05-07-12, 09:50 AM   #66
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Not everyone wants to go the same way Paul. To say E.J.s uncle has nothing to show for his skills is almost certainly not true. You mean he hasn't got a piece of paper. I left school with no qualifications & yes, i think i was let down by the education system to a certain extent but I am now retired & looking back over my life,I wouldn't change a thing. My son who did an aprenticship (i didn't) is now a design & development engineer in a major motor company and is also very happy. Having said that, i wouldn't change my life for his. Everyone is different, not having letters after your name doesn't make you a lesser person. Look at the great engineers of the past who often had virtually no education. Then look at "some" of the "engineers" that i have met who couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag.All very qualified but not very usefull. I find these are the ones that usually have an attitude problem to "lesser mortals". Having said that i've also worked with some brilliant ones.
I Havent said anything to the contrary Novo.

I said that E.J's Uncle/Example, is like so many others of that time, a victim of the education system. the man has skills he has developed through his life that he has acquired himself, and no one can take that away from him, he is a gifted engineer.

My point is that qualifications open doors for you, what you do when the door is open in entirely down to your skill.

Paul.
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Old 06-07-12, 02:46 PM   #67
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Found a bit more, I don't think I have posted this previously:

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/Trans...tion_Guide.pdf

Peter
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Old 06-07-12, 11:46 PM   #68
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Thanks for the compliments to my uncle boys and I can see both points about the qualifications thing . The upshot is there are good engineers with and without qualifications and they are very clever guys. And then there is the other end of the spectrum those with qualifications that are no good without a piece of paper (or pc these days)to do their work and for the practical side dont go there . And a funny example of this I would like to share with you.
The boss of this composite materials R and D company is a super intelligent guy.
He can design things and does for formula 1 cars and other high tech things including the armed forces . And can spurt out chemical formulas for materials like no ones buisness . Well he was driving home one day and his BMW 750i started to overheat . Did he stop ? no go faster was his theory and the more air passing through the rad would cool it down.
Wrong the car ended up with a scrap engine as there was actually no water in it to cool . Two pistons holed and two bores beyond redemption.
Poor chap has absolutely no practical knowledge at all . A really intelligent head that cannot comprehend a simple warning light saying stop . In this case the idiot light failed to register.
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